Shapevine :: Blog :: Shapevine interview with Frank Viola

The Following is a recent interview Shapevine conducted with Frank Viola, author of the recent collaboration with George Barna, Pagan Christianity

SV:  How did the collaboration with George Barna come about on "Pagan Christianity"?

FV: Jesus I know, and Paul I know . . . but who’s George Barna?

Just kidding J

I tease about that because when I first heard that George was “the most quoted Christian in our generation,” I was a bit skeptical. But after seeing how scores of people are rushing to read the book just because his name appears on it, I’ve become a card-carrying believer ;-)

About two years ago, George read the original edition of the book and he loved it. He then contacted me and said he wanted to have it published. He felt the message needed to go out to a wider audience. As we discussed the idea with Tyndale House, the idea emerged for us to co-author the book. So we did. And his contribution made it a much stronger work.

I have great respect for George. He’s a man of deep conviction and courage; he’s also an excellent writer.  One of the most frequent responses I’ve received from readers is how superb the writing is in the new edition. I credit the editors at Tyndale for that and George.

When the book was first released, someone said to me: “Frank, having your name on a book with George Barna may make you famous” . . . to which I replied: “having George’s name on a book with mine may get him crucified!”

I will shameless admit: the book does contain some vinegar. We are, after all, questioning and challenging the most sacred cows in the Christian faith. Those questions and challenges are not new. Regrettably, however, those in the past who asked them were for the most part spit on, stomped on, buried, and burned.

Consequently, in the beginning page, we dedicate the book to those great souls who were part of the Radical Reformation, whose shoulders we stand on.

SV:  What is your overall goal for "Pagan Christianity"?

FV: I suppose there are a number of major goals. But for me personally, my goal is to see more churches begin to meet under the Headship of Jesus Christ organically and become local “Bethanies” in their communities, expressing the riches of Christ through His ever-member functioning Body.

In my book “God’s Ultimate Passion”, I talk about how the Bride of Jesus Christ -- the most beautiful woman in the universe -- has been chained, silenced, controlled, and put under a great deal of guilt in many Christian circles. “Pagan” is one step toward setting her free. I’m very passionate about the church of Jesus Christ, and that comes through in the book.

But here’s the bottom line -- It’s my belief that many churches have shortchanged the Lord Jesus, making Him a “guest of honor” rather than making Him central, supreme, and Head of the house. I’d like to see that change in many places. Hence this book.

Readers should note that “Pagan Christianity” is a deconstructive preface to a series of books I’m writing on radical church restoration. It’s not the end of the story nor the full argument. For that reason, we intentionally don’t address solutions.

Some have criticized the book for this, but we never intended to deal with solutions in this book and have stated so much in its pages. We believe that for the great majority of those who read the book, it’s going to take some time for them to absorb the central thesis we’re making, which is quite radical. Namely, most of what we do in our churches today has not root in the NT, so let’s stop calling such practices Biblical and treating them as though they were sacred.

That statement alone will come as a shock to millions of Christians.

Therefore, questions about contextualization and “what do we do now” is running the cart ahead of the horse. Such questions will be addressed in the next book.

To use a metaphor, we believe (along with many in the emerging church) that the present form of the church is broken. It’s like an old house that is in need of major repair. So there are three options before us.

One is to ignore the problems and pretend that they don’t exist.

Another is to try and patch up the house and make it work. I believe this has been the approach for the last 50 years. Most of the books on church reform/restoration is a patchwork job. For that reason, it’s not solved the problem. No more than band aids can heal cancer. I believe Elton Trueblood got it right when he said, “The basic trouble [with the modern church] is that the proposed cure has such a striking similarity to the disease.”

The other option is the one that says, “There are cracks in the foundation. The entire structure must be take down and a new house built.”

“Pagan Christianity” argues for the third option. And that proposal takes time to absorb as it has a tendency to blow our circuitry. The next book will explore the issue of building a new house on a new foundation.

SV: Do you see the future of the church in the West as the glass is half-empty or half-full?

FV: Historically, there has always been a group of Christians who have gathered outside the traditional, inherited, institutional church. That group has always been small in number, and it’s always been persecuted. (We briefly discuss these groups near the end of the book.) They were called the Radical Reformation, the Trail of Blood, and the Left Wing of the Reformation. Speaking of these people, the great theologian Jurgen Moltmann said that "the church's future lies with the left wing of the Reformation."

Be that as it may, while the Protestant Reformation was greatly influential, it didn’t change the entire church. The last time I checked, Roman Catholicism claims more members than Protestantism. And that’s 500 years down the Reformation pike.

That said, only God knows what the church will look like over the next 100 years (should the Lord tarry). It is my belief that we will always have the institutional church. And it would be presumptuous to think that it’s going to disappear in our generation. As I have before said, we are up against a mindset and the titanic power of tradition. That doesn’t change overnight.

My heart is really toward the thousands of Christians who aren’t spiritually satisfied with the traditional church, who are longing for something more, who are questioning church as it’s done today, and who feel guilty about that questioning.

One reason that this book was written was to set them free from guilt and condemnation and give them a historical and biblical basis for their feelings. It’s also designed to encourage them that there is another way to gather with others unto Jesus Christ outside of institutional/traditional lines. Many Christians are unaware of this. When I began gathering with Christians outside the institutional church twenty years ago, I had no idea that I was standing in a very rich heritage.

Anyways, I personally try to avoid thinking in terms of what the future will look like, a la, will it be half empty or half full. I’m not interested in starting a “movement” or in being part of one. I don’t espouse a particular method or model. As you’ll see in the next book, I believe the model is a Person -- Jesus Christ. And His indwelling life as its expressed through a local body of believers. I believe that in many cases we’ve lost touch with the core principles and spiritual habits that characterize the ekklesia of God, which is a living entity, not a static organization.

One of the NorthStars of my life is to live by this standard: It’s not failure or success; it’s simply to be faithful.

If I can be faithful to the commission that God has given me, I can rest content that I have carried out the purpose for my existence on this earth. It matters not if I succeed in my goals or fail at them. Faithfulness is what’s important to the Lord, I believe. The rest is His responsibility.

SV: Are you "against" churches that meet in buildings?

FV: Not at all. What we do in the book is to show the origin of the church building and its influence on Christian thinking, theology, and practice.

In short, we point out how the social location of the church’s meetings has theological significance, and we discuss how it influences how the church operates. The book answers such questions as, “why do we call a building a ‘church’ and where did that thinking come from?” “What are the draw-backs of having a church building?” “Why do many Christians feel that a group needs to have a building in order to be regarded as a genuine church?” and many others along those lines.

I’ll just say that the story of where the church building came from is one of the most fascinating tales in church history.

SV: Talk to us a bit on weaknesses you see in the house church movement.

FV: Similar to the “emerging church,” the “house church movement” is not a monolith. Like Heinz, there are about 57 varieties in the movement, some good, some not so good. Some unmentionable.

I addressed some of the major problems of the movement in a talk I delivered at the 2007 National House Church Conference. I’ve also written a piece that describes the seven different sub-cultures of the house church movement. In the book, we mention some of the weaknesses of some house church movement. Here are some of the big ones.

1.     Some house churches have grown insular, ingrown, and have lost touch with other Christians, the lost, and our world. They’ve embraced a navel-gazing, “us four and no more” mentality.

2.     Some house churches have become part of sectarian movements that are elitist and exclusive. As such, they’ve become a backwater in the Christian world, content to surround themselves with mirrors.

3.     Many house churches are not organic. Instead, they have imported the practices of the institutional church (including the clergy system) along with the institutional mindset into a home. My friend John White teasingly calls this approach, “Honey I shrunk the church.” Similarly, I’ve made the statement that organic churches that are planted in institutional soil do not take root.

4.     Some house churches have no idea what they are doing and by default turn into a half-baked version of the institutional church, or they fracture and split. Many house church folks have unrealistic expectations. And when the honeymoon phase is over, they bail out when things get rough.

SV: For many pastors and leaders who read Pagan Christianity, they very well may come away from it saying, "This guys pretty much just attacked everything my work is built on."  What do you say to those folks?

FV: Great question. I guess I’d say three things.

First, I’d remind them that the book doesn’t attack pastors or anyone in the clergy. Direct quote: “Note that we are using the term pastor throughout this chapter to depict the contemporary pastoral office and role, not the specific individual who fills this role. By and large, those who serve in the office of pastor are wonderful people. They are honorable, decent, and very often gifted Christians who love God and have a zeal to serve His people” (p. 106).

Nor does it put blame on them for what we feel is an unbiblical leadership structure and system that we inherited. What the book does instead is trace the roots of the clergy system and challenges the modern role and office of the Protestant pastorate as over against what pastor/elders were in the NT and in the DNA of the church.

Second, I’d encourage them to read the stories of pastors who came to the same conclusions that George and I have, and what they did about it. They can read those stories over at www.housechurchresource.org There’s an Ex-Pastors page they can link to. (No need to read this site with blood pressure medication; it’s the testimonies of pastors themselves.)

Third, I’d ask them to take the things we’re saying in the book to the Lord, and give it both time and prayer before they react. If not, there’s a chance that they will react in the flesh instead of in the spirit.

On that score, I’d like to make an observation. So far, a number of evangelical leaders have really appreciated the book and they are interacting with me directly  in a fair and civil way. To me, this speaks volumes about their spiritual maturity.

By the same token, as I said in a recent interview, I value the criticism of the book so far. It’s helping me write a better sequel.

SV: What practical advice would you give to leaders who agree with much you have to say (in PC) and want to make changes in that direction.

FV: When we’re talking about leaders in an institutional church who have financial and other investments, every case is different. There are no set formulas on how a particular pastor or a particular congregation can or should move in a more organic direction. I’ve seen it done in many ways; it really depends on many factors. Thus I’d encourage them write me so we can dialogue specifically about their situation. I’m pretty accessible. They can contact me through www.frankviola.com

SV: Are you about to be the most hated man in America by American Pastors?

FV: Well, if I am, I’m comforted to know that I’ll be sharing that title. There is, after all, another person who authored the book J

To answer the question seriously, I would say I sure hope not. I have a much higher view of pastors in America than to think they would “hate” their brothers in Christ with whom they disagree. I don’t think American pastors are that immature and unspiritual.

In fact, yesterday I was interviewed by Drew Marshall. About half way through the interview, to my surprise (but my delight), he put a pastor on the line to pelt me with some questions. This pastor was incredibly impressive. We had a fantastic conversation, and we’ll be discussing the issues further off-line.

Let me add: I have friends who serve as pastors, and I respect them. Many of them are on our mailing list and faithfully read our subversive literature J They are fine men and they’ve helped many people, including myself. Even though we have different views on church leadership, this doesn’t change the fact that we both have the same Father and we are brothers in Christ. Nor does it mean that we can’t learn from one another.

So again, I think more highly of pastors in this country than to expect them to hate their Christian brethren with whom they disagree.